Hello and happy Friday!!

[JDPearson]

I’m excited to introduce myself to the Canvas Community! My name is Jewel Pearson and I’m a new Product Manager at Instructure, working on Discussions within the Canvas LMS. 

I’m excited about this new opportunity to be part of the effort in continually enhancing the world’s fastest growing learning management system and in supporting teachers and students in their online learning and teaching experience! Discussions plays an integral part in the success of the teacher/student connection and interaction and I am committed to listening and creating new features and improvements that make the learning experience even better.

Over the next few weeks, I’ll be getting to know how people like you are using Discussions through reading Community posts, talking with CSMs, and digging into feedback some of you have shared. I look forward to hearing from and working with you as we continue to improve Discussions. Please check back here in the Community for exciting updates on what we’ll be releasing in the coming months. 

If you are using the anonymity feature in Discussions and/or have opinions about it and would like to share your experience, provide feedback or discuss needed functionality, click this link and sign up for a time to have a brief chat with me and a couple of team members.  I look forward to speaking with you! Also, feel free to add a comment below. Thank you for your interest in Canvas, in Discussions and your dedication to your students! 

 

About Me

I have worked in the financial services industry as a project and product manager for over 15 years and recently decided I wanted an opportunity to work in an environment that allowed me to feel as if I was making a difference. There were so many value statements that stood out to me as I researched the product manager role here at Instructure, but there was one that made me know this role was for me, which was: “A Canvas Product Manager cares deeply about people”. That statement is me and who I strive to be in a nutshell and I am happy to now be working within an organization where that is important and matters.

In my personal life, I’m the mother of one adult daughter who is a lawyer and graduated summa cum laude from North Carolina Central University (Eagle Pride!) and is also a Harvard Law graduate - her success and education were my priority and passion. I also have a thing for tiny houses on wheels (THOWs) and am a tiny house dweller and advocate, having designed and built mine in 2015 (before they were a thing and people just thought I was weird :)). I believe that THOWs offer an opportunity to challenge the housing status quo and offer opportunities for impacting prevalent and longstanding housing inequity and like my professional role here at Instructure, I want to be part of something good that offers the opportunity to make a difference.

[richard-jerz]

Hi JDPearson.  I came across your post within this discussion about the new discussion feature.

I am going to share a video that I recently made.  I began this video as a reply to a colleague, and as I continued, I decided to make a “presentation” about some of the differences between Canvas and Moodle discussion boards.  Since you, JDPearson, might be new to "discussions," maybe my video will be helpful.

I didn’t know how long my video would be.  It ended up a little longer than I desired, around 30 minutes instead of a desired 25 minutes.

I would appreciate anyone’s thoughts about two issues: 1) Are there any “technical” errors in what I say?  2) What do you think could be removed, or added?  Someday I would like to improve this video and give it as a presentation at a conference.

A Comparison of Canvas and Moodle Discussion Tools

[jason_cfeideas]

Rick - I think your video is a solid comparison of the two tools. The only thing I think you miss on the Moodle side is that you can see posts in context from the Grade Posts interface [the one that looks like SpeedGrader] in addition to being able to Rate post-by-post. Canvas has a "like" feature that Moodle doesn't have (unless you setup a rating scale that students can use but then you have to make that not count in the gradebook so it can get a little convoluted). Moodle can present discussions in a Canvas-like format with Single Simple Discussion setting, it just also has other options with the middle layer. As someone who moved earlier this year to a Canvas university after 6+ years with Moodle it really is night-and-day with some things.

[richard-jerz]

Jason, thanks for your thoughts.

I don’t use Moodle’s “whole-forum” grading, so you are probably right that you can Rate post-by-post.
I don’t use a “like” rating feature, but Moodle does offer this. (See this post on Moodle.org.)

Yes, Moodle offers several types of forums. I haven’t used any except “Standard forum for general use. The “Q and A forum” might be similar to Canvas’ “student must reply before seeing post” feature.  Here is a screenshot showing the various Moodle forum types.

I appreciate your comment about “night-and-day.” When I was exploring the Canvas question bank, I spoke with the “Canvas question bank expert” at my school. He was somewhat newly hired to support the Canvas question bank, but he had about five years of experience using Moodle. He said to me, “Rick, if you are looking at the Canvas quiz engine and coming from Moodle, it is like ‘night-and-day.’”

[JDPearson]

Hi @richard-jerz , thank you for the share! Since I am still getting up to speed I am sure it will be helpful and I will also review this with my team in order to provide a response to your feedback request.

[hesspe]

There is a way to get a permalink in Classic discussions.  It requires first searching for the response.

1. Search for the desired post in the discussion forum.

2. The filtered posts will have a "View in Discussion" link at the bottom which is a permalink to that particular post.

3. Right-click and save the link from the "View in Discussion" link, or click on "View in Discussion" and copy the permalink from the address bar.

We have shared this workaround with our faculty.  I just tried it in Discussions Redesign and apparently it doesn't work there.  (Possibly I missed it being fairly new to the Discussion Redesign.  So far it has seemed to me that almost everything in Discussions Resdesign is a step backward. (It's a pretty face, very lacking in substance). 

Godspeed, @JDPearson.  You sound like a person with lots of determination and openness to new ideas.  I REALLY hope you can turn this ship around

[richard-jerz]

Hesspe, I tried your workaround solution, and it seems to work. It sure would be simpler if Canvas were to supply a “Permalink” link on the bottom of every post. Hopefully, this idea will make it into the Canvas redesign.

I am puzzled by the folks working on the Canvas redesign. It seems like they are starting from scratch instead of saying “What works well in the current design? Now let’s add to it.” I have seen numerous posts, like yours, saying “the existing feature no longer works.”

Here is a video showing your workaround: LMS Comparison: Work_Around_Canvas_Solution

[JDPearson]

Thank you @hesspe for the well wishes for sure. Thanks also for the candid feedback, which I will review with my team and follow back up with you on. We definitely want to ensure we're not moving backward with the redesign.

[richard-jerz]

Okay, Jewel.  I am just trying to help improve Canvas.

[richard-jerz]

Jewel, I am going to add another thought to this discussion, since you are becoming involved.

"Discussion Forums" take on all forms, and when you interact, you notice things that you like and don't like.  For example, this Canvas Community tool... I don't like it.  Could it be a setting that I am unaware of?  Perhaps.  But just as an example, it appears to me that I am seeing new posts "on the bottom."  I prefer a "nested" approach, where I can see who is replying to whom, because then I know if someone's reply is to me or to someone else.

You have the opportunity to use this Community discussion tool, the Canvas tool, and the Canvas "new" tool.  Yes, three different approaches.  You might want to consider getting actively involved in a discussion in each to see what you like and don't like.  For example, can you follow a discussion?  Does it "feel" right?  Can you find a post?  (Search by author or keyword)?  

On another topic, I am not sure why Canvas is using the word "redesign."  The redesign appears to me to be a brand new design, and not redoing the current design.  But maybe you can clarify.  For example, what percent of the new "redesign's" code is from the current design?  I ask this based upon the comments that I have observed about the new "redesign."  Or maybe this is Canvas' way of playing around with "marketing" terms.

[JDPearson]

@hesspe good afternoon, i did follow-up with my team and learned that some of your concerns are addressed in redesign. i would welcome an opportunity to connect with you to further discuss and also discuss the input they provided. if you're interested and willing, please use this link to schedule some time for us to connect: https://calendly.com/jewel-pearson/30min

[JDPearson]

@richard-jerz I don't have the percentages available to answer your question, however the "redesign" is not new work or a marketing ploy, but intended to be improvement on current/exist design and working from existing code. We are in process of moving toward designing and making updates/improvements from a more data driven and customer centered perspective, versus our own thoughts and ideas and I'm hoping that will address your concerns.

I would welcome an opportunity to discuss with you further if you'd like to set some time on my calendar via this link: https://calendly.com/jewel-pearson/30min

[richard-jerz]

Jewel, thanks for your reply.

Down the road, we can talk.  I provided my video so that people can hear me at their own convenient times.  And this Canvas Community is a great way to share ideas, so I hope to keep the discussion going.  

It would be nice if someone could create a simple list that contains comments about what users don't like in the new design, and what Instructure is doing about it.

For example:

Users	Canvas reply.
Treaded discussions gone.	That's life.
Too many clicks.	Too bad.
More due dates	We are working on this.

[chriscas]

Hi @JDPearson,

Thanks for introducing yourself to the broad community audience here!  Nice to meet you (virtually).

I know this was more of an intro thread, but I hope you don't mind if I add a few thoughts about the discussion "enhancements" here since a few people have already done so.  I've posted these thoughts previously in the discussion enhancements area as well, but I think it's always good to put them directly in front of a new product manager.

First, I see a few people here have already commented about the term "enhancement" vs "redesign".  On the code side, I'm sure a lot of things are being re-used and it's must be mostly the same database structure because we can turn the enhancements on and off while generally being able to keep all of the posts intact.  That being said, the visual interface for end-users is completely different, and options have been removed (specifically threaded discussions).  For many end users, I think the visual changes and removal of options make this seem more like a redesign than enhancements.

Second, as I mentioned above, threaded discussions have basically been completely removed.  In my opinion, the discussion enhancements interface is almost identical to Slack.  For some people and types of discussions, this change is probably a huge win. On the flip side, for courses designed around threaded discussions (which make up a vast majority of the discussions at our institution), the removal of that option and the new interface are immediate turnoffs for faculty.  What most people seem to have been asking for is more flexibility and options, and what we are getting (in this particular case) is the exact opposite.

Third, the new interface is generally more click-heavy than the current interface.  Again, some people may prefer this, but having to click "view thread" or similar over and over again to see all of the messages can be very cumbersome and will likely result in messages just plain not being read (especially by fellow students).  Instead of forcing this upon users, maybe there could be a user preference to show full discussions (like the current interface) or collapse everything below the first level (more like the current enhancements).  I know it's more work for coders, but without options, there's going to be a significant portion of users who are unhappy no matter which single direction you'd go.

Fourth, on the positive side, the multiple due dates are a step in the right direction that many faculty have been requesting for years.  I'm not sure that the current iteration is exactly what everyone wanted, but at least it's a step in the right direction.

I hope some of this candid feedback helps and it not too harsh right off the bat.  I know Instructure can do great things if you not only read our feedback but also act on many of the suggestions.  I understand there is a balance between simplicity and flexibility, but hopefully there is a willingness to explore moving a bit more in the flexibility direction than what we have today.

-Chris

[richard-jerz]

Yes, when we have someone new, it’s an excellent opportunity to get them involved.

(1) Yes, it appears that the new design has changed the user interface. You know more than I do, but I do note that you have said “completely.”
And options, as you mention, “have been removed,” but I guess some will be added, too.

(2) Different people view “threaded discussions” differently. For example, I see your post in the Community, and it appears that you are replying to Jewel because I see “Hi @JDPearson.” But are you replying to her original post (seems likely) or one of her other posts that she made, or are you replying to one of my posts because I said something to catch your interest, but you want Jewel to know? No problem. Your words are words, but I have lost some “context.”

Likewise, is this reply to you or to Jewel?

I didn’t care for Slack and don’t use it. My department tried, but it is no longer used. But I understand that some folks like it. My school recommends Piazza as an alternative.

(3) More “click heavy” is not an improvement or enhancement. But this is the challenge. I would go crazy if I had to keep clicking on “view threads,” for example. However, you are offering some good suggestions.
Perhaps Jewel will take note.
There have been many good suggestions in this discussion topic.

(4) Due dates are a challenge! (I want to set a “firm” due date, but allow students who don’t meet it to have a second chance, and a third chance, and a forth…)

Right now, Jewel is our person! I too, hope that Jewel (and others) don’t see our discussion as being “too harsh.” We offer our ideas as suggestions for improvement.
Perhaps, long term, the solution is to give the instructor some choices. Right now, the new design appears that (if your university allows it) can be turned on if desired.

[snugent]

Welcome @JDPearson! It is wonderful to hear work is continuing on discussions. I had given some feedback earlier about the discussion redesign at the link below. My biggest concern is about replies and threads with popout window. It breaks the flow and every instructor I have shown this does not like it. Please keep us informed of any changes. 

• More Discussion Redesign Feedback

[richard-jerz]

Snugent, thanks for adding your thoughts to this discussion.

You have done an excellent job demonstrating the power of Permalinks in the way that you have pointed us to other discussions here in the Canvas Community. You probably noted that we have been discussing this feature.

Because the Canvas Community forum does not appear to support “threaded” or “nested” views, I cannot quickly tell to whom you are replying. We seem only to be able to view these posts in “oldest first” or “newest first” format. I show in my video that Moodle supports a variety of views chosen by the student, including nested, oldest first, newest first, and threaded subjects.

I did read your suggestions and agreed with them. I hope that Jewel notes that the redesign discussion tool has some serious problems. I also hope that Jewel is getting a sense of how the discussion tool has many opportunities for improvement. My video shows Moodle contains some of your ideas. It is always good to see how other LMSs do things to feed ideas for improvement. I would love to see Canvas implement the best of all worlds.

The current inability to add subject lines to posts, as you point out, is bothersome. For example, I am in a course that uses Canvas and has a Q&A discussion. As students add questions, it becomes one big mess.

[mwolfenstein]

Welcome @JDPearson! In addition to my role as my college's Distance Education Coordinator, I've also been working with the California Virtual Campus's Common Course Management System Advisory Committee. That group works to represent the interests of all 116 California Community Colleges in relation to Canvas, and we have a discussions workgroup. Many of our members are off for the summer now, but I sincerely hope that we will collectively have an opportunity to meet with you sometime late this year. I'm also more than happy to meet with you sometime this summer as I'm in a 12 month position.

As to some of the discussion in this thread, I feel the need to point out two things:

1. I see the comparison to Slack and I need to state that this is the problem for most of us using discussions. Slack is essentially a modernized IRC. An IRC is not a discussion forum, it's a chat platform. Trying to make discussion forums have an IRC like interface is fundamentally misguided. IRCs rely on channels rather than forums. You can close an IRC channel, but they're intended to be open ended communication tools. They're great for project groups and live communities to discuss projects or activities. They're not good for medium to long form posts which is the primary use for discussion forums in educational settings. If we want a consumer or productivity product that's an analog for LMS discussion forums, Slack is not the place to draw on as an example. Reddit or Quora both present better examples on the consumer side as analogs, and I have trouble coming up with an analog in the productivity software space because most organizations lean on things like email for long form communication.
2. This is pretty trivial, but the term redesign isn't really problematic here from my perspective. Even if 100% of the code for the discussion forums were new (which, it's now being implemented as an LTI so I'm sure a lot of it is), we're talking about a feature set that's part of a larger platform. This isn't a new version of Canvas, it's just a rework of a part of Canvas.

Best,

-Moses

[richard-jerz]

Moses, you add another very important piece to this issue, that we don't want a discussion tool to be like Slack because Slack is a "chat" tool (Internet Relay Chat), not a discussion tool.  I agree with you, and I couldn't think of how to express this, so I appreciate your thoughts.

I wonder if you would characterize this Canvas Community discussion tool as an IRC?  And I wonder if Twitter and even FaceBook are more like IRCs than discussion tools?  I don't use Twitter or Facebook, so I am a little in the dark.  And that product Piazza, it appears to be a discussion tool.

Perhaps the key to a discussion tool could be the ability to keep track of "threads?"  Your thoughts?

[lshulman]

I would say that Facebook is more like a discussion tool. Discussions there are "threaded" (i.e. replies to comments are indented - an collapsible) based on levels within the discussion)

[mwolfenstein]

@richard-jerzI would still technically classify this tool as a forum because you post topics to it rather creating channels for discussions, but I agree that the fact that this tool doesn't allow for threading is quite unfortunate. I've been off of Facebook for quite a while, but I'm pretty sure it does actually allow for threading. Social media tools are arguably more like micro blogs than they are online forums, and although I was on Twitter for years, in some ways I'm still not sure how to best characterize what exactly the platform is. The fact that posts have distinct URLs makes it decidedly not an IRC, but it's also definitely not a discussion forum. I decided that it was a toxic mess back in late 2018/early 2019 so I deleted my account.

Piazza is a super powerful discussion forum tool, but it isn't intuitive for students and the learning curve it has means that it's best reserved for courses where the unique features it has (e.g. crafting a collaborative response, integrated surveys) are actually essential for instruction.

[j_c_turner]

Really interesting reading through these posts

I haven't looked around - but perhaps there is a need for a taxonomy of communication methods that might help develop the whole canvas product. I think it is interesting that announcements also have facilities to discuss, and an underdeveloped aspect of a canvas page is to allow all users to edit it similar to a wiki but a very underdeveloped one, and an underdeveloped chat function. Does anyone have a frame work or suggest one that move us away from discussing individual tools and functions to build a classification of purposes that could help to meet the needs . just a suggestion. but this might help to delineate the different needs and help KISS each solution as we move forward with developments. 

ta

jim

[JDPearson]

Good afternoon all! Thank you all for your welcome notes and for all of the feedback shared. I have not responded to everyone individually, but have and continue to read all of the comments, the threads and am noting the feedback being shared.

Instructure Product is transitioning to managing and designing our products from a data driven focus and perspective. To support that, the Discussions Engineering Team is in the process of adding data capturing tools to our applications that will help tell the story of our application usage, pros/cons, challenges, etc. Additionally, we continue to host feedback sessions and participate in user group discussions to also gather information and data regarding application usage, pros/cons, challenges, etc. With all of the data being gathered and organized, we're looking at the numbers and evaluating the trends and patterns to allow the data to guide our direction. In addition to looking at data, ratings, comments and page views to indicate the range of users who are interested in a solution, there are also a number of other factors we must consider such as alignment with our vision for Canvas, the effort to implement the ideas and legality and privacy concerns, among other factors. 

In short -we are listening. We're listening to the feedback provided here in the Community, as well as listening to the feedback from our other data sources previously indicated and will be aligning it with the overall Canvas vision in order to move forward appropriately and successfully. 

Thank you very much for being a valued member of this Community. If you are at all interested in scheduling some 1:1 conversation time, please feel free to do so here: https://calendly.com/jewel-pearson/30min