Exploring Question Banks

[siouxgeonz]

  I'm trying to make a module for learning the addition facts.  I work with grownups who discreetly are still counting (either on their fingers or in their heads) or using calculators for everything.   My experience has been that described in this blog post by Michael Pershan Missing Factors: On Learning What You Don’t Know – Teaching With Problems   in which  he  describes a teaching experience, and cites research showing that students w/ learning handicaps stuck to counting even with lots and lots of games for practice in basic facts.   They just learned to count as fast as they could.  Welp, when you get to algebra, it *really* gets in the way.  I want a way out!

   In the cited research, the 'solution' was to provide the answer quickly.   I'm wondering whether we can't leverage technology  and, in  "SAMR" jargon -- get from Substitution and Augmentation up at least into Modification and lean a little into Redefinition of an educational experience.  Specifically, can we integrate "concrete-representational-abstract" progressions into learning the facts?  

      Even more basic than that:   can I build in the review into quizzes?   My Orton-Gillingham training and immersion taught this skeptic the value of practicing to automaticity.   I get bored with practice long before the students, especially when we're tracking progress.

So, to How do I create a quiz with a question group linked to a question bank?    and I think I've got it!

  was also useful (it's not just about 'administrative' stuff -- it includes the basic 'how to do it.')  

     My next search for Question Banks info then gets a question about somebody where the same question was repeated between 8 and 16 times out of 60 questions... on the final exam...   not the end of the world for drill , tho' it's not good.  The idea that randomly selected questions should be set up not to repeat a selection seems obvious  would be a special feature that a person could try getting votes for?    I suppose I shouldn't broach "could I pull in the questions from the assorted groups, and then... once I've got 25 questions... have it *then* randomize them all?"   I know just enough to know that good Object Oriented Design would make that  possible (and also enough to know what a challenge that is )

    So!   Back to the practical.   I am thinking of making completely separate banks for each quiz and doing the "send to another quiz bank" with the individual questions.  Then we'll see how it plays out.   I've broken the math addition facts into 12 chunks (per https://canvas.instructure.com/files/47799716/download?download_frd=1    this excel file)   and I've done the first two.   Yes, it's different working without the assumption that "this has been designed to work so keep trying!"  -- I have to go to "oops, that's probably glitchy... what's another way to do this, or something simpler?"   That's #goopen

[siouxgeonz]

... and  I'm wondering why in the unnamed quiz I made that when I try it, says it is 7 questions long... in the roster of quizzes it changes.   It said "21 questions, ___ points" and now it's 28 questions and I think 108 points.   ??   Yet when I previewed it again, it said... 7 questions.   Which would happen to the students?   Who knows.

[kona]

"My next search for Question Banks info then gets a question about somebody where the same question was repeated between 8 and 16 times out of 60 questions" - isn't the norm and was a bug in Canvas.

I make extensive use of Canvas in my Statistics class for quizzes that sometimes pull from question banks/groups and they don't replicate. And yes, you can have it pull 25 questions and then have them be randomized. This is done via the question group (all questions in the question group are automatically randomized).

[kona]

If you post a screen shot of what you're seeing we could probably help figure it out.

[siouxgeonz]

It's 100% impossible to discern between norm and bug ...

is what it says about the quiz on the "quizzes" roster...

are what's inside.   So it's seven questions long on the inside but 28 on the outside.     This time it doesn't seem to have changed ...

.... and I'm also not sure why it's telling me that there really aren't 20 questions available.   There doesn't seem to be a way to get back into the "group of questions" to edit that.   I *think* it's linked to a chunk of questions that have 21 possible questions.   It's possible somehow I clicked on a totally different group.   Fortunately, making a "question group" over again is quick.  

     So... I'm guessing that teh "group" questions aren't appearing because it thinks it can't pick them... except that when I cut it back to 1, it still said that was too many.   That'll have to be a "mystery error."   Maybe I didn't actually pick a bank at all... which woudl be the kind of thing that would do that...

[siouxgeonz]

  is what it has in the edit window.

Now, the first time I go there, I have the option to edit.   After that... nope.   The buttons to edit or delete -- they're not there, even if I hover (which works for the other questions.   So... I have to exit out of the quiz, and then go back in to delete it.  

[siouxgeonz]

The issue is that I would like to be able to draw 10 random questions from teh "just zeroes" bank, and 10 random questions from the "just ones" bank... and then randomize them all, so the students didn't have 10 'zero' questions followed by 10 'ones' questions.  

It's not that hard to non-randomly choose 10 from each, put them in their own bank, and then draw from that one.   It does take about 5 times as long, though.

[awilliams]

I can't tell from the info you've posted, but my guess about the discrepancy between what you're seeing for number of questions on the Quizzes page and what you see when previewing the quiz is a problem with the linking you've done to a question bank.

1. Have you verified you linked the group to a bank? How do I create a quiz with a question group linked to a question bank?​

2. Have you verified the bank you're connecting to is the correct bank? No identical banks?

3. Have you verified the bank has enough questions to satisfy the number you are trying to pull?

If you want to pull 10 questions from 2 banks and wind up with a random order from all 20, you can't do this with two groups. My suggestion would be to add those 10 questions from the different banks to a single group, and tell the quiz question group to pull 20 questions from that group of 20. How do I create a quiz by finding questions in a question bank?​

[siouxgeonz]

I can't verify that I linked the group to a bank.   There's no way to find out.

Not only can't I find out what they're linked to (it being possible that somehow I didn't link them to anything), but once I've looked at them, all editing buttons just disappear (as the screenshot shows).   As I said, I then have to back out of the quizzes and go back in.

REgarding the randomization, yes, what you describe is exactly what I described that I'd have to do, noting that it's not that difficult but takes about 5 times as long. 

It also keeps that group of  quiz questions as a separate object... but that's not really a disadvantage.   They're arithmetic problems so I'm not likely to think of some improvement that I'd want to apply to different places.  (I linked to that same lesson in my original post -- it's quite useful, yes.)

[awilliams]

Susan Jones wrote:

I can't verify that I linked the group to a bank. There's no way to find out.

Yes you can.

Susan Jones wrote:

Not only can't I find out what they're linked to (it being possible that somehow I didn't link them to anything), but once I've looked at them, all editing buttons just disappear (as the screenshot shows).

Yes you can.

Susan Jones wrote:

REgarding the randomization, yes, what you describe is exactly what I described that I'd have to do, noting that it's not that difficult but takes about 5 times as long.

It doesn't take me 5 times as long but that could vary from person to person. Based on some misconceptions you have, I would recommend spending some more time with the guides and videos and make sure you're following all the information within them.

[siouxgeonz]

Thank you for your LMGTFY answer...

I posted a screenshot already,  here:   @siouxgeonz  

My screen shot is what I see on my screen.

I'm afraid it's not the same as yours. 

   I'm learning, and by the way yes, I"m spending a lot of times with guides and videos.  

Your screenshot tells me what I should see -- and what I have been seeing since then.   So (as I noted) it was probably a novice error that created that.   However, it is, in fact, what my screen has so that, in fact, no. I. Can't. Edit.   Sorry. 

One thing I've noticed about the guides and videos  is that they generally have zero, zip, zilch nada in them about "if you do this wrong, that will happen " or "if you can't do this, it's because of that."  

I do check there first, yes.

Since that information isn't there, I occasionally post a question to the community.  I posted this as a blog post (not a question) in a very small group, as a logging of the learning process.  My thinking was that another "Free For Teachers" person might find it and learn from it.  I'll leave that stuff on my personal blog henceforth.

[Renee_Carney]

 @siouxgeonz ​

I posted this as a blog post (not a question) in a very small group, as a logging of the learning process.  My thinking was that another "Free For Teachers" person might find it and learn from it.

I appreciate your thinking here!  It is very kind of you to post your learning process and open it up for others to see!  This has been a very effective strategy used by other community members.  One that immediately comes to mind is Dr. Rimmer.  You can find her blog posts here​.  The strengths of her blog posts were her candid mistakes/successes and complete humility!  Please, take a few minutes enjoy her blogs!  If this is something you are still passionate about, please know that you are welcome to continue sharing.

I also wanted add that I feel like you immediatley got defensive with the community members that chimed in to help you (above).  Our community is full of amazing people that are service oriented and humble in their knowledge.  I hope that you never view a supporting comment as attacking your abilities.  Knowing many of the community members personally, I know that would never be their intent.  In fact, many would be near distraught if they thought their support was interpreted that way.

I personally know that putting yourself out there, stepping into a new social environment, and engaging with new people can be difficult.  Every community, whether physical or virtual, has a different culture, language, etc... Whenever I step into a new social environment, Mary-Frances Winters rings through my ears..."I don't believe that people wake up in the morning saying, who can I treat poorly today.  Always assume positive intent."  After reading some of your work, and knowing that you support adults that are learning very basic skills, I'm sure this rings true to your heart as well!

[siouxgeonz]

Yes, I defended myself.

THink about this:

I posted a screenshot of what I saw, showing that I couldn't edit.

The response? 

I was informed that I could.

  I was contradicted. 

Do you understand how I might feel a desire to defend myself when I'm directly contradicted?  

Then...

My instructions for how to solve my problem?   A lengthy repetition of exactly what I had said I had to do already (as opposed to "you're right.")

FInally,

I was informed that

'It doesn't take me 5 times as long but that could vary from person to person. Based on some misconceptions you have, I would recommend spending some more time with the guides and videos and make sure you're following all the information within them.'

THink about this.   I had linked *in my post* to the same guide I was recommended to read.    I have read it.  I wondered if my post had actually been read...

The thing I was asking for would take a second -- an option to "randomize all questions on this quiz."   A click.  

Forgive me for thinking that it would take more than five seconds to do three separate processes with question banks.

Forgive me for thinking that "It doesn't take me five times as long...", etc.    is a gentle assumption that gosh, I don't think or work very quickly and I haven't done my homework.   A barb.  

  Tech communities are notorious for this kind of treatment, and for deeming people who don't like it 'oversensitive.' 

If this kind of response is deemed "friendly," then... I know that, as with StackOverflow, I'll eavesdrop.

[Renee_Carney]

 @siouxgeonz ​

I'll defer back to the quote I left.

I don't think you needed to defend yourself here.  In reading both sides of the conversation I don't think Adam (since you reference his posts) was attacking you in any way.  He was assisting you by using screenshots to demonstrate what you should be seeing on your screen.  He was also sharing his experiences.  I'll defer back to my comment about communities (and community members) having different cultures, language, etc.  I'm sorry that you had a troubling experience with StackOverflow (assuming that is what you are saying).  I do not have experience with their community, so I cannot defend nor compare theirs vs ours.  What I can ask, is please do assume positive intent here until someone 'blatantly' proves you wrong.  If that happens, we'll address it.  We only have 4 rules in this community Community guidelines​: Be Cool, Be You, Pitch Ideas not Products, and Stay on Target.  We encourage you to be you and we ask all to be accepting of others as well!  Then we can all be cool!

The last thing we want is for users to turn from engaged to lurkers!  We all benefit and learn for the diversity of one another.

[siouxgeonz]

It really is a drawback not to be able to have nested randomization.   I have to choose the questions to go into the "only 5 from this group" bank.  NOt a gamekiller drawback, but being able to nest the randomness would be much, much better for the "practice to automaticity" kinds of quizzes.   Maybe I can do it w/ a little code of my own, but that would be a summertime thing. Starting tomorrow, it'll be all about the students.  (this is a note to self, not a request for help.)