Episode 9: Building Meaningful Professional Learning
Ryan Lufkin (00:00.624)
Hello and welcome to EDUCAST3000, our instructor podcast. My name is Ryan Lufkin.
Melissa Loble (00:07.646)
and I'm Melissa Loble, and we're your co -host for today. I'm so glad you could all be here for this episode, and I am so thrilled to introduce you all to a very special guest. Please welcome our very own Senior Director of Learning Services here at Instructure, Michelle Lattke. Now, it's so good to have you here, Michelle. And
Michelle Lattke (00:27.544)
Hi, it's so happy to be
Melissa Loble (00:33.607)
She's going to be wearing a slightly different hat. So in her role, and she'll share a little bit about what her role is at Instructure, she's been here for many years and really helped us build up a lot of the training and development work that we've done internally, but even more importantly with our customers. But we've asked her to join us today because Michelle's done, she's sort of had this side project that's turned into this really incredible professional development platform.
And we wanted to pick her brain a little bit on how she got that launched and how to think about it, especially for all of you out there at organizations that are looking to think about building professional development and paid for class professional development for your broader audiences, sort of how you can think about that. But before we get there, Michelle, we would love to have you share a little bit about yourself. Would you mind just giving us a little bit of your background?
Michelle Lattke (01:29.709)
Of course, of course. So I was an educator for 18 years and I wore just a variety of hats in that time as an educator, everywhere from working with ninth grade students and an introduction to computer course to being an elementary specials teacher for computer technology and then moving on into instructional coach roles, working at the district level. I was a director
instructional technology for a while, all different hats. And I also had the opportunity to work in very small district with only four schools and a very, very large district with almost 100 ,000 students. So lots of opportunity to see different settings and environments, as well as work a little bit in the higher ed space as an instructional designer. in my very, toward the end of my time in education, I worked with virtual
a virtual school and so really got to see the different modality of learning as well. And that's where I really found my passion for learning management systems. And that's really what led me to work for Instructure as I helped with a rollout in a very large school district and just was extremely passionate for the benefits that Canvas LMS could bring to learners and to educators. And I wanted to be able to help do that beyond.
my one district and with educational institutions across the country.
Ryan Lufkin (02:59.464)
Well, obviously we love having you on the team, but one of the things that we always like to ask our guests is for your favorite learning moment. One of those moments that impacted your life and maybe led you to along the path to where you are now.
Michelle Lattke (03:13.857)
Such a great question and I have so many moments that stick out in my mind because I think educators have impacted my life so many times in really positive ways. so it's hard for me to narrow it down to one, but if I had to think of one, I think one of the one really impactful moment that led me to know that I wanted to be an educator happened when I was in college and I had decided to study computer science. And at the time,
It was not a very popular major for women in science. And so I was one of two majors in the department that were women. And I was really getting discouraged. And I met this professor who really encouraged me to stick with it. And one of the things that he was studying at the time was the fact that in the introductory class, there was a 50 -50 split between men and women, but that when
it got to the first course of the major, it went down to a 90 -10 split. And so he started a project where he, like a research project for his, you know, contribution to the department. And he wanted to really get to the bottom of why this was happening. And he knew that mentorship was a really key element of encouraging people.
to continue on in math and science. And so he built an undergraduate section leader program for the introductory course. And I was able to be a part of that very first time that he rolled that out. And I got in my section all of the female students who had never had any experience with computer science before. And it was so exciting to have these moments with them where I
got to see them have aha moments or got to see them get over a frustrating moment. And it was really the moment that I realized that, hey, I'm studying computer science, but I think I actually want to be an educator because I really, it was such a powerful thing to see that aha moment go off in people's minds. And as a side effect, he continued on that program and it changed the dynamics of the department to have a much more even split for future iterations
Michelle Lattke (05:39.245)
the different years of graduation, years of students graduating with a computer science major.
Melissa Loble (05:48.1)
That is so inspiring. I love that. I didn't know that about you. One of the fun parts about this, and I think either Ryan or I say this a lot on the podcast, is even the people that we've known for a long time and have really great relationships with these, we learn these really interesting things about you all.
Ryan Lufkin (05:49.562)
That's awesome. Yeah.
Ryan Lufkin (06:04.206)
I know, we get a little more information than we would on a daily basis, I love
Melissa Loble (06:08.374)
Yes, it's so cool. It's so cool. Well, let's dig in because I think that helps actually frame the larger conversation we wanted to have. And I started to frame that at the beginning of this episode where I shared that you've done some really incredible work around creating a certification program or a professional development program that's intended for a very broad and wide external audience. And I think there's a
So I've watched you build this over the years and I think there's a lot that can be extracted from your experiences, things that worked really well, things that maybe didn't work as well over the years that others looking to do either certification programs within their own organizations, external certification programs, professional development programs. How do you do this? There's techniques to this to make them really effective and to draw people in.
So let's start actually with a little bit of a foundation because everybody's probably like, well, what program are you talking about? we, you launched and your teams launched the Canvas Certified Educator Program just over four years ago. What is it? Why'd you launch it and where'd sort of the idea come
Ryan Lufkin (07:18.15)
Thank you.
Michelle Lattke (07:20.61)
Yeah, great question. you know, I had the opportunity when I joined Instructure to be a part of our services team. And I got to see firsthand in delivering services, the types of needs that our customers had, as well as the great services that we were already delivering. And I saw that we had a lot of opportunities for people to learn introductory knowledge about the buttonology of our flagship product Canvas.
Ryan Lufkin (07:47.028)
Buttonology, I love that term.
Michelle Lattke (07:50.329)
That's one of my favorites. And I knew that we could go deeper. At one point in my years in education, I worked for the Florida Center for Instructional Technology at USF. And one of their primary goals was to develop PD, rich PD for ongoing educator learning and to help folks with recertification.
felt like, wouldn't it be neat if we could bring that all together, right? Meet the needs of our customers to go deeper with our products and go beyond the buttonology into the pedagogy, but also do it in a way that allowed them to do it in a way that adult learners learn and to use it for multiple purposes, both to enrich the things that were happening in their classroom, but also potentially to get the ability to use it for recertification.
Ryan Lufkin (08:47.216)
Yeah. So knowing that, tell us a little bit about how the program started. I know it's evolved over time. So tell us a little bit about how that's, how that, you know, where it started and where it's gone.
Michelle Lattke (08:57.611)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So it started as our campus certified educator program, which is four core courses and two electives. And so folks go through these six courses and within each course, they earn a badge from instructor that demonstrates that they have mastered the knowledge and skills within that course. And then if they complete the whole series of six courses, it completes the pathway badge, which earns the certification for the program.
The two electives are choice opportunities because we knew that there was core knowledge that people needed to have, but we also know it's important to give learners voice and choice in their learning experience. And we knew that not every person was going to be coming from the same role, the same district, the same.
higher ed versus K -12 space, right? There were gonna be all different interests that they had that they wanted to explore. And so we built in the elective as an important component to provide that learner choice so that if they were a leader, they can take electives in leadership. If they were someone that dealt with assessment at their institution, they could figure out how to utilize an LMS for best practices in assessment. If they were an instructional designer, there were electives for them as well. And so we really wanted to provide that.
opportunity for different learners to get what they needed while also getting that core baseline of knowledge that was so important. The other key component, and this really helped us shape it into the program that it is today, that thing I mentioned before about we really want people to get certification credit, that's hard to do because every state has sort of different, in the K -12 space, every state has different rules about how that works. Is it CEUs? Is it hours? Is it...
you know, different things that have to be approved. And so we actually created this sort of dual enrollment model where we partnered with Digital Promise, who a lot of people are really familiar with in the credentialing space because they've built this really amazing opportunity for people to earn micro -credentials. But they don't necessarily provide learning for them to get there.
Michelle Lattke (11:05.771)
they, the learners just have to provide mastery evidence and it doesn't matter. They could provide mastery evidence by, you know, just osmosis, right? They learned it on their own or by taking a course somewhere, as long as they can produce evidence that shows that they have the skills to earn that, then they can earn these credentials through digital promise. And so what we
is we aligned our courses with Digital Promise credentials so that our learners got two benefits. They got recognition from us at Instructure, but they also created mastery evidence that they could submit to Digital Promise and get an additional credential.
that was widely recognized across the country for recertification credit. So it allowed that dual benefit to our learners. And as well, there are some higher education institutions who have relationships with Digital Promise as well. So it was a benefit to both our higher ed and K -12 customers. The other thing that is important to know about the program is that, you know, we really...
wanted to make sure that to honor the values that our partners Digital Promise had, we wanted to make sure that it was research -based. And so all of the content that we included is not just what Instructure thinks, but what research tells us our best practices.
Melissa Loble (12:34.252)
There are so many pieces to that that I think are some best practices in launching programs like this. But before we get into those, I know that there's the Canvas Certified Educator program that's been targeted at teachers or educators. You've also expanded into other programs. Would you mind just sharing a little bit about that evolution? Because I think as others are looking to stand up certification programs or professional development programs, understanding where you can start and then where you might see opportunities for growth.
Michelle Lattke (12:47.424)
Yes. Yes.
Melissa Loble (13:03.997)
is good insight for them. So where have you grown and how has that happened?
Michelle Lattke (13:07.778)
Yeah, great question. So I think feedback is important. Every piece of feedback is important, whether it's good feedback or bad feedback, right? And so one of the pieces that we incorporated in the program is the opportunity for our learners to give feedback after every course. And so that helps us to both continue the development of the programs and ensure that they are kept up to date and meeting our learners' needs, but it also
ensures that when we see that a need is unmet, that we can think about how we can meet that with the potential of a new program. So one of the new programs that we rolled out recently was our Canvas Certified Technical Admin program. And what we were finding is that oftentimes in our Canvas Certified Educator program, we were getting Canvas admins. And because a lot of times in education, you wear so many hats. I know I wore a lot of hats. All of our educators wear so many hats. And
We'd get a Canvas admin who was also an educator and they found a lot of value in Canvas certified educator. But sometimes we would get a Canvas admin who more was someone that worked in the IT department and so didn't have that same need to talk about or plan around or build evidence around creating a great classroom experience, right? They needed more of that like in the weeds, nitty gritty.
How do I make sure that I can ensure the success of the rollout of this? How can I set up my instance so that it is really the best that it can be? Because what we find is a lot of times people come in, they set it up for what they need at the time, and then the time gets in the way, right? And they don't have time to go back and do all those best practices pieces. So we started hearing more and more from people like, we love this.
And could we also get one that dove into those real technical weeds? And so we're really like, yes. And so we partnered actually with our support team. This was such an exciting partnership because we had heard from them, like, it would be so great if our admins knew all the things that they needed to know so that they could help resolve things more quickly and put in support tickets that were
Michelle Lattke (15:19.926)
formed in the best way they could be so that we can resolve their issues more quickly. And so we partnered with our implementation team, our support team, to get all the information that we needed to know that we were hitting all the right notes of the successful technical administration of Canvas and incorporated that. And again, we replicated the things that we did well with the first program. We added a choice element with an elective.
And those electives are more technical. They get into weeds of things like APIs and things like that. And so that's been a really exciting opportunity to see that program have a lot of success as well. And we're in the midst of building out two new programs also this year.
Melissa Loble (16:02.455)
So I hear two themes so far is know your audience, right? So, and watch that audience expand. Like pay attention to who's showing up. That may not have been your original targeted audience, know, see, uncover ways to help address. And then also partnering. Partnering with different parts of either in your internal organization or external organizations to ensure the right content and it's meaningful content and you can give somebody more portability with
Michelle Lattke (16:11.128)
Yes.
Michelle Lattke (16:19.586)
Yes.
Ryan Lufkin (16:23.388)
Mm -hmm.
Melissa Loble (16:31.21)
partnership depending on what they're doing with that certification.
Michelle Lattke (16:34.846)
absolutely so critical to have the right partners because you can't know all the things all the time, right? And so you really have to pull in those experts who can help inform the outcome so that you're getting that high quality outcome that you're looking for.
Ryan Lufkin (16:49.456)
Yeah. So this seems like it could be daunting place to start, right? You know, it's not one of those with most softwares, it's just not a, if you build it, they will come type of situation. You really do have to provide this type of support. Where, what would you recommend, I think, for people that are looking to set up programs like this for their organizations, where do you start? What technology do you use to support this approach? How do they even get it off the drawing board?
Michelle Lattke (17:18.296)
Yeah, you know, that's a great question. And I think I probably am biased because I love Canvas so much that I'm going to say that Canvas has been a great solution for us. But I want to support that with the evidence as to why. And I think there are other things that could be very successful for people. we really wanted to make sure that we had opportunities for rich feedback. We know that if we're asking people to create
mastery evidence of their learning, they need to be able to iterate on that learning. They need to be able to say, I tried this once, it's not quite where it needs to be. They need to be able to have great interactions with both their facilitator and their peers. And so that was another key component of it is authentic peer collaboration.
So we really wanted to make sure there were opportunities for people to be going through the course side by side with their peers who aren't at their institution because they talk to their peers at their institution all the time, right? And that's valuable and important, but we wanted to bring the additional value of talking to peers at other institutions so they could hear interesting ideas
sparks of inspiration from others at other institutions. And then having a facilitated experience has been very important because, you know, what we know about adult learners and online learning is that life gets in the way sometimes, right? And so we need, we need that cheerleader there with our facilitator who can help have people keep going, give that rich feedback. And so all of that is to say, Canvas provided all of
for us, right? It had that opportunity through SpeedGrader for us to give that rich feedback to our learners. It had the opportunity through rubrics and through multiple submissions to be able to iterate on that work. It had the opportunity through all of the discussion boards and other.
Michelle Lattke (19:26.158)
peer editing assignments and all the other collaboration tools and inside of Canvas, peer review, I meant to say, peer review assignments, all the other types of collaboration opportunities inside of Canvas allowed us to have that opportunity. Obviously, we're dealing with a situation where credentials, micro -credentials was really important to us. so having a technology tool that also allowed us to issue both
digital credentials as well as pathways was also really important to us. so actually we utilized Canvas credentials before it was Canvas credentials. We utilized Badger when it was Badger as part of the program. And then of course, when it became Canvas credentials, we continued to use it and really appreciate the value that it brings and the power that it brings in allowing us to create pathways that are flexible and stackable.
able to be displayed when people earn them in all of their, the places that are important to them. So having a place for learning and a place to issue those credentials, those are the technology tools that have been essential for us.
Melissa Loble (20:41.127)
love that and thinking about that underlying technology and you started to get at some of the pieces and some of the choices you made around how you constructed the program. You shared a fair amount of that with us, which is really cool. To the same audience, just as Ryan was sharing, somebody just starting out, what are some of your non -negotiables around course design or program design or what would be some advice?
for someone, for somebody standing up a certification program that maybe doesn't have the rich sort of education background that you and the team had. What are some foundational pieces to how you should think about building these courses and programs? And you just talked a couple of those relating to technology. How do you look at
Michelle Lattke (21:26.22)
Yeah, think one of the things, this is a simple thing, but people like consistency, predictability, repeated experience. They like to know what to expect in their learner experience. And so one of the things that was really important to me was a consistent look and feel, as well as a consistent learning progression.
Ryan Lufkin (21:36.476)
Mm -hmm.
Michelle Lattke (21:49.526)
And we like to do things cute at Instructure. So we came up with an acronym for our first program, was PANDA. And PANDA led us through every module. So every module had a repeatable format where you would prepare for learning, activate your knowledge, et cetera, et cetera. And so that PANDA acronym, we described it and
Ryan Lufkin (21:52.767)
You
Michelle Lattke (22:11.702)
open about that was what they were going to see in the beginning so that people knew what to expect. And then we lived up to the expectation by repeating that format for them. And then we used a similar model in our other programs as well with different acronyms. What's really fun and interesting about this is we've had a lot of institutions tell us how much they liked that ability to be really go through a learning progression with each module and have it be very predictable, repeatable.
easy to flow through as a learner. And so we've had two or three institutions reach out and say, can we do that? Can we, we'll make our own acronym, but can we do the same thing? And we're like, of course, that's what we want. We want you to get ideas from this and take it back. And so I think there was an institution that used the acronym Blaze and we were really impressed that they came up with a word.
that started with Z. But yeah, we found that's a really simple thing, right? Just making a consistent learning experience for your adult learners so they knew what to expect. They know what they're gonna be getting into. We did also want it to be, two other things were really important to us. And I think if you're talking about any kind of micro -credential program, these are important things. And I mentioned this before about research -based. That's really important.
Ryan Lufkin (23:17.158)
Yeah.
Michelle Lattke (23:30.636)
And then mastery evidence is really important because I think so much PD is based around seat time and really it should be based around have I learned this, yes or no, and can I demonstrate that I've learned it? And if I can demonstrate that I've learned it, I shouldn't have to sit anymore. And so I think having that mastery evidence component was a really important piece for
Ryan Lufkin (23:38.352)
Yes.
Ryan Lufkin (23:55.162)
That's huge. Well, and you have high completion rates, solid enrollment, high completion rates. What are some of the secrets to that engagement that keeps people carrying all the way through the courses?
Melissa Loble (24:07.503)
Yeah, and just for context, how many learners, you might not know the exact number, but approximately how many learners do you think have gone through the program since you've, at least the Canvas Certified Educator program since you've launched
Michelle Lattke (24:19.022)
So we just pulled these numbers and I wish I could remember them off the top of my head, but it was over a thousand and I think our completion rate is over 80%. And so it's really, really something to be proud of in the professional development space because I think what we know about learners is that adult learners especially is that they're busy. They have a lot of things going on, life happens.
Ryan Lufkin (24:24.166)
Wow.
Melissa Loble (24:26.062)
It's incredible.
Michelle Lattke (24:46.837)
And so one of the things that we really try to be is flexible. So we do provide some guidelines and a framework of deadlines, but we're really, there's no late, there's no lateness, right? Like whenever you get it in, you get it in and that's okay. And if someone needs to get with the next cohort to complete, we're super flexible about that. If they need to restart, we're super flexible about that. So we try to really be flexible with the needs of.
with our adult learners and meet them where they're at with where life is taking them. And so I think we really want to encourage people to stick with it the same way that my computer science professor encouraged me to stick with computer science, right? Like I want our learners to feel like we're encouraging them to stick with the program. And so we really try to be very encouraging to have our facilitators help people along the way to...
I think that facilitated experience has become a real core of those completion rates is because those facilitators become a key helper and supporter, as well as those peers, right? Your peers are rooting you on to finish as well. And so I think those two components building that rich environment inside of the course and the cohort.
A lot of times people are in the same cohort together and so by the end it's like they've built these connections as well. And so think building those connections, providing that support through facilitation and being really flexible in any way that you can with the needs of adult learners, I think those are the things that have helped us with engagement.
Ryan Lufkin (26:29.691)
Love
Melissa Loble (26:31.055)
think I'll add to my, as I've been pulling out key nuggets, so much of everything you're sharing is so incredibly inspiring and also really valuable as you think about launching these programs. A nugget that I just pulled from that too is this cohort piece, right? Having those network connections. And I think oftentimes we think about certification programs and professional development as entirely asynchronous and entirely on your own, right?
Michelle Lattke (27:00.12)
Yes.
Melissa Loble (27:01.132)
Maybe there's a discussion forum where you're occasionally prompted on, you know, what'd you think about this work or is anybody having any problems or introduce yourself to each other. But like meaningful cohort based experiences can be done and you've done this with over a thousand learners and so it can be done at scale too without, you know, creating this larger heavy lift. So I just think that's also really inspiring.
Michelle Lattke (27:12.45)
Yes.
Michelle Lattke (27:23.374)
So.
Really appreciate that. And I would be remiss if I didn't mention one other thing what's been critical to our program. We have a fantastic person, team member named Erin Keefe, and she has been a wonderful steward of our program as well. After the launch, she's done a phenomenal job. And so I think the other thing that is important for engagement, important for people who are looking to put these programs out is it's not just
you start it and then the work is done, right? There's that ongoing work and you need a really amazing person who can continue the work and make sure that they believe in the program and the mission of the program and can continue to keep people excited about it. And that's exactly the person that Erin is. And we're very lucky that she has been such an amazing person just continuing to shepherd this program and its success.
Ryan Lufkin (27:57.616)
Mm -hmm.
Melissa Loble (28:19.351)
she can hold you to all of these sort of principles or non -negotiables we've started. It's much easier. I mean, there are places where it's great to have a collection of people all working in collaboratively together and, you know, one mind can be, you know, a group of minds is more valuable than each individually. However, I do think there's real value in having one person, like you just described, really shepherd it so that there's consistency. As you said, that was so important in adult learning so that you've got that consistency. Yeah.
Michelle Lattke (28:22.679)
Yes.
Michelle Lattke (28:41.302)
Yes.
Michelle Lattke (28:46.347)
Yes, absolutely.
Melissa Loble (28:49.026)
What's next for the future? if we look out into the future, where are you excited about? You said you're going to launch a couple more programs. You don't have to share. I'm sure those are secrets. But where do you want to innovate? Are you looking at new technologies? What's next?
Michelle Lattke (28:58.785)
Yeah.
Ryan Lufkin (29:02.156)
Hahaha.
Michelle Lattke (29:09.171)
So great question and I can share this is really exciting. We are in beta right now so we're getting ready to launch and so we're really, really excited. We have two new programs and this is actually kind of miraculous because I'll tell you what, when we started out we were scrappy, right? We were doing this, we
proof of concept, we really needed to prove ourselves. And so sometimes when you do something and you're scrappy, then there's pressure to, can you replicate that again? Right? And so it was really on us to processize the success that we had with the first program as we looked at how do we replicate that success with other programs. And I think that I'm really proud of the work that the teams have done around these new programs, because I think they've done a beautiful job of capturing the magic.
of the initial program while doing it in a way that was much more driven by a repeatable process. And so with that, we're super excited that we're going to be launching our Mastery Certified Educator program, which is really driven by assessment and all the important concepts around assessment and how that drives learning. And so we're so excited and proud about that program. And then the other program is our Instructure Credentials Innovator
program. And why we're even more excited about this one is that this is tied into all the great work that we've done with our programs, right? We've been, you know, out there trying to create a great experience for adult learning with credentials. And so we want to take those lessons learned and help others out there who are trying to create programs like this and teach them those lessons learned. And what's so neat about it is certainly we
that maybe you use Canvas credentials, but you can get a lot out of this program whether or not you use Canvas credentials. It's really around the foundational principles that you need when you're thinking about rolling out a program for micro learning, for credentials, all of those different things. things like governance and all the other things that are part of the planning process, we have incorporated that into this credentials innovator.
Michelle Lattke (31:25.858)
certification. So we're really excited about these two new programs. They're going to be launching in quarter three in next couple of months and so we're super excited to see how our customers utilize the learning from these programs either to create great assessments at their institution or to build out awesome credentials -based programs at their institution.
Ryan Lufkin (31:50.876)
Well, and it wouldn't be in the Educast 3000 podcast if we didn't bring up AI at some point. you know, looking at the future, how do you see AI impacting these programs?
Melissa Loble (31:57.611)
That's right.
Michelle Lattke (32:02.579)
In services in general, we've had a lot of conversations about generative AI and how that plays a role in our work. And I think, you know, we always want to be mindful of both responsible use of AI as well as that human and AI partnership. And so I think there's a lot of opportunities for us to use generative AI to, you know, improve our workflows, to help us keep content updated more.
quickly, know, our products change a lot. And while a lot of our content in the certification programs is based on pedagogy, you know, there's things that we have to stay up to date on. And so having AI help us with some of that, I think could be very beneficial because it allows us to get that content out to our learners more quickly and expeditiously. But the other thing is we've heard from a lot of our educators.
hey, do you think you could make a course on AI? So that's another thing that we're exploring is the possibility of maybe looping in an elective to Canvas certified educator in 2025 around responsible practices with AI in education. So lots of ideas that we have about AI.
Ryan Lufkin (32:55.578)
Yeah.
Ryan Lufkin (33:11.76)
I love to hear that. hopefully, if you let me chime in on some of your content, AI literacy is such a hot topic right now and there's so much that we can do to bring educators, get over that fear, really move them into a more productive phase of the conversation. I wanna help, let me help. Do it, do it, I mean it.
Michelle Lattke (33:21.028)
so
Michelle Lattke (33:29.712)
Let's do it. Ryan, I'm writing it down right now. Ryan said on Educast 3000.
Ryan Lufkin (33:36.068)
It's such a fun conversation. think there's so like, I love that that's, you you're already getting requests for that, but there's such an opportunity there. That's amazing.
Michelle Lattke (33:44.195)
Awesome, let's do
Melissa Loble (33:44.784)
I'll, yes, and I love that. And that leads to yet another nugget that I think is really valuable. It's as you think about building these programs, and you've mentioned this before, meeting learners where they are and staying current and fresh with what are the latest things that relate to this particular area of your own professional work or your own personal interests.
that you want to keep up to speed on. It's not a one, you said this, it's not a build it and it's done. It's constantly thinking about that feedback you're getting from the learners and also understanding what they're facing and helping the programs of all, because that's how you get them to come back for more and more experiences. And I think that's what we're all hopeful for in education, particularly as we think about the opportunity with AI and personalized learning. So as you think about just the future of professional education in general,
Michelle Lattke (34:16.964)
Yes.
Melissa Loble (34:40.788)
credential based programs, certifications, professional adult learning that doesn't sit necessarily in more of traditional environment education. What do you think is gonna, like where are we going in the future? What do you predict or what do you hope will happen?
Michelle Lattke (34:50.851)
Yeah.
Michelle Lattke (34:56.867)
think it's just going to move more and more toward those micro learning experiences, right? I think we all know that we're busy individuals and we have needs to learn something either because our current job demands it or because we want to have mobility in the market. And I think that the more that I
members of my team who want to have, you know, skills and what they look for is things like, you know, project management certifications, change management certifications, right? People want that, those micro learning experiences that help them to enrich the skills that they can bring to the table in their career. And so I think, you know, educators have traditionally had
know, recertification requirements or, you know, different requirements in higher ed to keep your subject matter knowledge expertise up to par. And I think the more we can offer a variety of options for our learners to do it in the time and space and place that meets their needs, the more that they can do learning in small chunks, right? I think a lot of times,
We think about chunking as like something we do in elementary school, but the reality is we all need learning to be in digestible chunks. And I think the fact that we can recognize micro learning as a valued and valid type of learning, I think that's where I see us going and that's where we're already going. And I think it's gonna continue in that direction moving forward.
Ryan Lufkin (36:33.584)
Yeah, and that ability to communicate that learning, right? To make sure that you can demonstrate that for potential employers or for, know, well beyond just kind of the accomplishment for themselves, being able to stack those credentials up for potential jobs. Yep.
Michelle Lattke (36:48.9)
and bring them together from place to place, right? And I think when credentials, the general concept of credentials or badging came out, think it was, in some spaces, it was a digital sticker. And I think over time, we've seen it evolve more into, I think about that Girl Scout sash, right? Where if you earned your Girl Scout badge, you really made that fire, right? You demonstrated the skill.
Ryan Lufkin (37:10.842)
Yeah.
Melissa Loble (37:11.595)
Hmm?
Michelle Lattke (37:18.681)
And I think now that's the conversation that's happening with credentials is that there's meaning and value behind that thing that you're stacking or displaying because you went through the paces and the rigor of demonstrating that you knew that and that you can now take that demonstrated knowledge and apply it to your new work environment or your new promotion or wherever it is that you're going in your career.
Ryan Lufkin (37:30.744)
Thank
Ryan Lufkin (37:48.07)
Yeah, that's amazing. Michelle, any topics we didn't cover that we should have covered in this conversation?
Michelle Lattke (37:56.881)
you know, I can't think of anything we didn't cover. have, okay, I can think of something. So one of the other things that I think credentials bring to the table is motivation. And we didn't talk about that. And I could talk about that all day. There's like this really cool model called Octalysis. And it's like the eight different ways that people are motivated.
Ryan Lufkin (37:59.972)
Hahaha
Ryan Lufkin (38:10.97)
Yeah, that's true.
Michelle Lattke (38:19.877)
So don't get me started on that. But I do think the one thing we didn't talk about was the motivational element of credentialing in that there's different intrinsic and extrinsic motivators that help people with engagement and continuation of learning. And so I think that that's another element that's really important to all of this is that what we're trying to do is motivate learners. And if you can tap into all the different, it's not one type of motivation, right? You have to hit all the different types of motivation.
And so if you can be knowledgeable about that and bring that to the table with the structure of your credentials, I think that is another benefit that credentialing can bring to your program is those motivational elements as well.
Ryan Lufkin (39:03.984)
Well, now I need to see this motivational chart that you were talking about. We'll have to include that in the show notes for anybody else, because I need to see it.
Melissa Loble (39:06.974)
I think we have another podcast.
Michelle Lattke (39:09.456)
You're on, you're on.
Melissa Loble (39:12.572)
And I think we have a future podcast, Ryan, here of like, how do you think about motivation? I'm a big fan of looking at extrinsic and intrinsic motivation and understanding how you combine those two and the most meaningful ways to get people both engaged in the learning, but also to be motivated to complete and continue on their learning journeys. Like that's huge. So I think there's a future podcast we're going to have you on to just dig into how do you think about that when you're building credentials? Like there's so much meaning behind
Ryan Lufkin (39:15.257)
Exactly, yep, yep.
Michelle Lattke (39:34.328)
All right.
Ryan Lufkin (39:35.802)
Hahaha!
Ryan Lufkin (39:40.336)
Awesome.
Michelle Lattke (39:40.482)
I love that.
Melissa Loble (39:42.342)
Michelle, thank you so much for your time today. It's so wonderful to have you on our podcast. So many great insights and tips and advice and experiences that you shared. we're so thankful that you're generous for sharing those with our audience. So thank you for being
Ryan Lufkin (39:59.194)
been a great conversation. Thanks, Michelle.
Michelle Lattke (40:00.794)
thank you so much for having me. I love talking about this program and I just really appreciate the opportunity to be here. So thanks a bunch.
Melissa Loble (40:08.543)
Thank you. And we will, just like Ryan shared, we'll put a bunch of links to different resources and some of the things that Michelle's referenced in the show notes, so don't hesitate to check out those as well. And thanks everyone.
Ryan Lufkin (40:20.614)
Thanks everybody.
