Episode 23: The Good, the Bad, and the Political: Evidence and Public Policy in Education
Melissa Loble (00:01.475)
Hey there, welcome to EduCast 3000. I am your co-host Melissa Loble, and I have a special co-host here instead of Ryan today. This is Tracy Weeks. Tracy.
Tracy Weeks (00:14.126)
Thanks, Melissa. So excited to be here. Melissa and I are so excited to chat with our guests today about his predictions for the EdTech landscape in 2025, although we're a little bit into it by now. But our good friend, Karl Rectanus is here and Karl is an education leader. He's a serial entrepreneur.
a sought after advisor, investor, speaker, all of those great things. He actually founded Learn Platform, which was named one of Fast Company's most innovative companies in the world to system to systematically expand equitable evidence-based education. And I know we're going to hear more about evidence as we talk to Karl today. And as many of you may know, Learn Platform is now part of the Instructure portfolio. So Karl, welcome to the show.
Karl Rectanus (01:05.973)
Thank you so much for inviting me. It's good to be with you.
Melissa Loble (01:10.713)
Thanks Karl for being here. Tracy gave a few highlights, but we'd love for our audience to get to know you a little bit more. They may not have met you before or know you. So would you mind sharing just a little bit about your past, maybe something personal as well, so that we can get to know you.
Karl Rectanus (01:26.015)
Yeah, of course. So I was a teacher and administrator here in the US. I actually became a CFO for charter schools. The first years they got started in the state of North Carolina because I felt like the back office might be impacting what we were doing in the classroom. And it looked like an opportunity to have positive impact. I actually ended up teaching in Japan for a couple of years. I taught overseas.
and have lived and worked all over the world, was lucky enough and got the entrepreneurial bug and have been trying to fight that disease and failing over the last couple decades. Most of my work has been really in education, thinking, working inside, outside and through the system to help our education systems be more effective for everyone.
The last organization I got a chance to found with a bunch of great researchers and others was Learn Platform and in 2022, we chose Instructure and Instructure chose us and joined the team there at Instructure and up until, know, lot of that team is still doing that work and we are friendly.
about all of that, very excited about the growth that's continued to happen. But over the last year or so, I've been spending most of my time advising what I call founders, funders, and policymakers to figure out how we make this system work for the most number of students and teachers moving forward.
Tracy Weeks (03:12.558)
That's great. Karl, one of the things we always love asking our guests is about a favorite learning moment. And this can be a moment when you were a teacher, when you were a learner, or even just an observer or an advisor learning something from someone else. So can you share one with us?
Karl Rectanus (03:31.821)
what a gift to think about. Like, we've gotten to spend a lot of our time learning. And as a teacher, you think about how others learn. But I feel so lucky to get to learn all the time. It's hard to choose one. But one that sticks out is that I moved to Australia. I chased a girl there who, to be clear,
She is now my wife, so I was successful, I guess, in that endeavor. But this was in 2000 during the Olympics. And while she's Canadian, because of that she's on a Commonwealth passport, she could work, but I could not be employed by an Australian organization. And so what I ended up doing was covering the Olympics for a set of children's museums and schools.
back in the US to make money. set up this thing where interactive, this was early days of the internet, of email. so students and youth would come to the museum and they'd ask questions at this kiosk. You know, are there sharks in the Sydney Harbor? And, you know, how tall is the Dutch swim team and things like that? Well, it's overnight on the East Coast.
So every night they would email, I would get a list of questions, anywhere from 20 to 40 questions. I would wake up in the morning, there they'd be, I'd answer those questions at a fourth or eighth grade level, send them back, and I was on the beach by lunch. sometimes I would go interview somebody or cover something for, at the Olympics, it was a reason to go learn in the wild. But the learning moment was...
For me, I realized after doing that during the Fortnite that is the Olympics, that I was supporting thousands of kids and a bunch of teachers in an innovative way. And so it made me realize there may be ways to impact more students, more youth, more teachers, more systems to think about how learning could happen and look differently.
Karl Rectanus (05:46.949)
And that was big, to the point that it got me stuck on this entrepreneurial journey or disease, depending on how you look at it.
Melissa Loble (06:01.13)
my gosh, I love that story. didn't know that. and I have known each other for a long time and I didn't know that story. What a great story and what a great success in chasing a girl across the world. So with that, I'm going to lean us in a little bit to politics. I'm going to, before I do that, just share with all of our listeners, please know that this is a hot topic around the world right now. And we're going to chat about opportunities.
But none of these political views necessarily are anything other than any of our opinions or our perspectives as we look at what some of the opportunities are. So we don't mean this to be a political exchange, more of a, how are we going to manage all of this change in education so that we can still drive forward what we're all so passionate about, success for students? So with that caveat, I'm going to jump right in.
One of the reasons why Tracy's our co-host here today is because she leads government affairs and she's had a long history in understanding the role of policy in education. And one of the things that both her and Karl, I know they nerd out on this all the time, they're actually in the same state and I think their state might come up with this question. But one of the places I wanna start with, for those people in the US that are listening, you've followed a track with this new administration.
that there needs to be a transition to more power to the states. For those of you outside of the US, this is a differentiation, right? Understanding the shift from a federal level set of activities to a state level of activities. Well, thinking about that, Karl, as we think about what states are doing now already, do you see any places or any great examples of states leaning in and really supporting education that could then, we can build on and we can think about it?
how other states might take that on, or even how states are thinking about accountability. Again, I suspect North Carolina might be part of this, given it's both of your home and North Carolina does quite a lot of really interesting things.
Karl Rectanus (08:08.499)
Yeah, appreciate the question. I also appreciate that by the time this is published, some things may have changed. It's been a moving target, especially over the last few weeks. And, you know, the thoughts here sort of independent on my own. do spend some time engaging across the sector and with policymakers and others. I think, you know, the reality is states and local communities
Melissa Loble (08:15.426)
That's absolutely right.
Karl Rectanus (08:37.333)
have been the primary funder and investor in their own local educations already. The federal government has, depending on the state, represented anywhere from six to about 22 % of overall public education funding in states. Tends to be higher in red states and traditionally red states than it does in others. And I think we have known for a long time
all of us who work in education, that in many ways we sort of have 50 to 53 different markets, as opposed to a single US market in which we engage. So all those states have been doing a lot of things already. I think we're going to see an acceleration to some shifts and changes at the state level, because I think there's a lot of pressure. Certainly, different states have taken, I think, almost
I think 19 states have started to activate education, ESA's savings accounts. There's work around vouchers and funding going on. you know, I highlighted earlier in the year, within sort of 2025 predictions, which actually was at the end of 2024, which, you know, is a new set of the before times.
I used to think that before times, it was before March of 2020. That was five years ago. Now we're before this administration. But one of the ways I put it was federal noise, state innovation, local execution. And so I think that's what we will continue to see. We've certainly, the noise has come true. And there's certainly been some steps at the federal level. But state legislatures are still in for most states right now.
Tracy Weeks (10:06.435)
Yeah.
Karl Rectanus (10:31.541)
And I think the types of innovation we're seeing, I think we'll see around AI, potential policies. I think you're going to see a lot of focus. The easy sort of bipartisan stuff feels like deep fake legislation, data privacy, student data privacy and data privacy, data use within AI. think you'll see, but some innovative approaches. You mentioned North Carolina.
where there's a new state superintendent, Green, who is right now doing a listening sessions across the state and has been very receptive. The thing that I think will be consistent across states, whether that's in North Carolina, Utah, where I know you are Melissa, or states like Texas and California, larger, I think there'll be a focus on evidence.
or effectiveness, right? What will happen? What will get you outcomes? The state of South Carolina just moved forward with some statewide work earlier this year to acknowledge, you know, and lean in to help districts differentiate as they make purchasing decisions, which solutions and tools and approaches and interventions deliver, you know, effective outcomes. So that type of accountability, I think we will see.
In terms of assessment, traditional accountability, I think the doors are wide open for what accountability and assessments might look like over the coming years. There's some need and opportunity for updating and some innovation in those spaces.
Tracy Weeks (12:13.56)
Karl, you mentioned sort of the federal noise, the state action, but then you mentioned local execution, right? So do you have a couple of examples of some school districts that are already showing some promising results when it comes to like innovative technology solutions?
Karl Rectanus (12:30.037)
Yeah, think, great question. There's so much going on. would say, you know, at the time that we are right now recording, there's a lot of question marks what funding will look like in the new budget year for local communities. I do think two things are happening. One, there's that question, you know, what's it going to look like? And so people are
making some, you know, they're either pausing or delaying some of the decisions in terms of where they're going to invest and be able to after in the next fiscal year. Most of them that starts in July or in the fall. But the other thing we're seeing is an increase in the number of educators, bus drivers, staff. I mean, I think for the first time, folks are sort of reaching and able to recruit.
educators in a way that was very difficult over the last few years, but I think teacher retention. If you look at a place like Prince William County, outside the Beltway, they've taken some innovative approaches in how they're looking at teacher retention with climate surveys, some work that they're doing. If you look closer to home, here in North Carolina, I think
Wake County is doing some smart things around how they're making decisions around AI. think further the West here in the state, Union County has always been doing some smart sort of evidence based. You you can't do you actually their purchasing process has a pathway for the interventions that they activate. Not only, you know, do departments and schools have the ability to purchase.
But before they activate those, there's a check around data privacy, but also evidence at the central office level. So these types of tweaks that they're taking there, if you go further out west, there's some folks in California, and I'll have to think about some of the districts in particular, but they're looking at AI sort of almost like nutrition labels.
Karl Rectanus (14:52.981)
When they look at AI, they've got some questionnaires within purchasing. How is AI being used? How's the data that's training the AI being used? That's mostly in the K-12 space. Higher Ed, similarly, a lot of movement going on. And that's all about local execution as well.
Melissa Loble (15:13.912)
I love the breadth of examples there, not only from a state level that you shared, but also from an individual district level and even higher education system or institution level. You also started to talk about AI, and I would love if you would share a little bit. You're one of the core founders of the EdSafe AI program and project, and we'd love for you to share a little bit about that.
And then where does this, you started to talk about it, AI intersect with some of the work that states may be doing.
Karl Rectanus (15:48.645)
What a moment for those of us who have spent, you know, decades, we won't count how many decades, but more than one, you know, trying to help the system be better for all students. So many things going on. Not only is there federal noise, there's this sort of technological opportunity and challenge that comes with AI. am, I do co-chair the industry council for EdSafe AI.
It is a cross sector, nonpartisan, non-profit focused on supporting effective policy, practices, and solutions in AI in education. Traditionally, if we look at things like technology, oftentimes it gets regulated in a larger scheme and education is not a part of the conversation. If we look at
data privacy, example, or COPPA or FERPA or some of the regulations have been passed. Oftentimes those were passed thinking about social networks or marketplaces or how data is used. COPPA basically says, you know, 13 year olds and under can't access these tools. And then lo and behold, hey, wait a second, we have a lot of kids that are under 13 that are in it that we want to use technology. What should that look like? And so EdSafe
which is formulated a number of years ago. It wasn't me, I got a chance to join later and chair the industry council, but around something called the SAFE framework. And the SAFE framework, SAFE is an acronym, stands for safety, accountability, fairness, which includes transparency, and effectiveness. And so SAFE, this SAFE framework, and Ed SAFE sort of says, we believe in education.
whether it's policies, whether it's practices within districts or states or solution providers, whether it's the solutions that we use and the way they're built, they should align with this safe framework. We're not saying exactly how or what, but this is where we should start. so about a year ago, EdSafe, which was made up of the great but usual suspects in education,
Karl Rectanus (18:18.451)
the digital promises and the ISTEs and the COSINS and the both unions and PTAs and other groups were advocating for this work, but there was no private sector participation. And so there was a recognition that actually we're all in this together and that inactivating Instructure one is one of the founding joiners of the industry council that is now part of EdSafe.
which now numbers over 125 companies, small, medium, large, extra large, public, private, from platforms down to individual small, you know, new tools through AI that are advocating and have committed themselves to complying with this sort of safe framework in their own way.
Melissa Loble (19:09.546)
It's incredible work that this program is doing. being a part of it on the not only contribution side, but just really understanding the impact and the advocacy side is really powerful. So we'll make sure we include in the show notes links to EdSafe AI for any of the listeners that are interested. And also some of the other references that Karl mentioned earlier, some of the work that some of the states and districts are doing, we'll make sure to link those as well.
But I just want to acknowledge, while it's bringing really important collaboration together, it's also at a time of a lot of change, acting as a very important advocate in the space for safety, but also for impactful use of technology.
Karl Rectanus (19:57.055)
Yeah, I think because I get to sit in this space where I can talk with private sector partners like yourselves, policymakers, schools and districts, oftentimes, and I know you felt this, our sector has had a low trust network, right?
We're as busy head down doing the thing, teaching students or, know, the same way teachers are spending so much time in their classroom that they might not get a chance to talk with a teacher down the hall or across the district. Also, solution providers and policymakers and districts and states might not get a chance to talk to each other. And so they ask me a lot, you know, hey, what if we do this? Will solution providers do it? Or.
solution providers will be like, well, you know, our states and districts gonna, you know, go along with this. And one of the things that I have realized is that, you know, I do work outside of education as well. And there are way easier ways to make a buck than in education. Whether you're a teacher or an administrator or a solution provider, it's like not easy. And so anybody who has committed to this and is doing this work,
Tracy Weeks (20:55.15)
Thank
Melissa Loble (21:07.37)
It's so true.
Karl Rectanus (21:19.369)
they can't only be financially motivated because they will lose. Like there's just either pass that water will flow downhill. And so the recognition and the opportunity to bring folks together around whether no matter what their tax status is or where they fit in the sector to recognize that like we're all in this. I mean, I know both of you were in classrooms. I know we bring the same motivation.
And it's going to take those folks across the sector who are committed to doing things the right way together as a sector to really, I think, have the type of outcomes we want, especially in light of the other thing I've learned, which is a lot of people don't really understand how this education sector works or has worked and the impact it's having. And I think that's where a lot of the angst is right now or concern.
is that we might be getting rid of baby with a bath water as people take hatchets and chainsaws instead of scalpels and rebuilding tools.
Tracy Weeks (22:29.57)
So Karl, as you are advising the next generation of entrepreneurs and investors, and we see more and more private equity, mergers, acquisitions happening in EdTech, what advice, I'm hearing a lot in your previous response, but what advice would you give to the next Karl?
Karl Rectanus (22:54.997)
Well, first off, there are way easier ways to make a buck than in this in the education space. But if you're going to come, come, come correct. You know, this is this is real and it's very important. You know, I spend one of the things I've come to realize is the approach that we took at Learn Platform as we grew. Turns out it was a little bit unique and different, but it's very teachable.
and it's what I call being an impact-centered organization. The impact, if we think about financially, the term gets used a lot. And by impact, I mean positive non-financial outcomes, right? Not just the finances, but the non-finances. This could be environmental, could be social, could be governance, and other things. But oftentimes, it is considered an add-on. It is a cost.
It is people all the time, like, you an impact company? Because we want our companies to grow quickly. We don't want them to grow slowly. Or, you know, and so it's been code for slower growth or less effective. But the reality is if you center your decision making over the impact that you want to have, you know, you can actually use it as, as an accelerant.
for the organization's impact. When you ensure that your product strategy, your business model, your underlying financing, your operating model, and your culture, the five parts of the organization, are aligned around that impact, a bunch of great things happen. People all hone their decisions tied to that same impact approach, right? So product is not too far ahead of sales, and sales isn't selling something that doesn't exist, right? Your culture starts to hone around that.
and you can have an unfair advantage when it comes to recruiting or retaining the best people. And so the advice that I end up spending time on is how do you help people think about the centering around impact, the decisions you're making around your own impact, as opposed to saying, hey, let's just go grow and we'll add it on or make it a cost later. And I'm really excited about what we're seeing in the market. Those folks who are
Karl Rectanus (25:21.439)
They're not great impact companies. They're just companies that are doing better than others. I think as a, you know, optimist, restless optimist, I'm excited about
Tracy Weeks (25:35.342)
That's great.
Melissa Loble (25:35.361)
I love it. I love that advice. And I would love to, perhaps we can extend some advice. We're going to keep asking you for advice here. We have a lot of educators that listen to this podcast, particularly administrators, designers, people thinking about how to have that impact that you're describing using really great technology. And it's a crazy time, whether you're in the United States or outside of the United States, how do you keep grounded and centered? How do you...
How do you stay moving forward and not get so caught up in all of the both drama as well as unknown that's happening, especially in the policy landscape right now?
Karl Rectanus (26:17.695)
Yeah, when I talk to leaders, they're doing the day to day. They're in it right now. They still have students showing up this morning. The bus has got to run. Those things have to happen while they plan. And so there's always that level of schizophrenia, the near term to the long term for any leader. But I think right now it's especially intense.
So there's two things that I think are important. One, again, center on the here and now on serving students, youth, your local community. That's what I think people are most focused on and rightfully so. But second, think about how to equip your organization and your community to make decisions together as these changes happen. One of the...
frameworks that I think is so powerful that was included as a part of the Every Student Succeeds Act fundamentally was useful over the last few years and does not go away, especially if local communities continue to grow on this, is four levels of evidence that were outlined. I find it a really useful on-ramp for driving evidence-based decisions.
inside your organization and within your community as a way to communicate, know, hey, we are keeping these things, getting rid of those things, but here's why. And for those who maybe haven't gone as deep, Every Student Succeeds Act and states have adopted these four levels of evidence. It starts with a demonstrating rationale. For educators and administrators, this is a logic model.
Right? This is what we learned in, you know, getting your master's or PhD or your EDD. This is really about saying, hey, this is what goes, here's the problem we're trying to solve. Here's the intervention. Here are the near, mid and long-term outcomes we expect to have. Just asking for that evidence. What's the logic model? What's your level one, you know, evidence that this works? At least help me understand that we're on the same page. And then level two, which is promising.
Karl Rectanus (28:40.901)
evidence is, hey, show us where you've done this, and at least small groups, that it's had promising outcomes that if we did it in larger groups, it would work. And then the third level is those slightly larger groups. It's not randomized. It's really about having context and understanding in these contexts, this is what happens.
And then level four or these RCTs, the randomized controls trial, which have been really the gold standard, but too expensive and take too long and very challenging. Traditionally, we've seen some good technology that's made that easier and faster. But I encourage folks to say, hey, let's ask for evidence. Let's use that evidence both, not just from ourselves, but
from others who look like us to give us a sense that this and let's backstop our decisions and then let's consistently make, you know, build more evidence and more conviction because ultimately confidence is what's external. You can fake confidence, but conviction is internal. You can't fake conviction. So as you build, you know, help your community build internal conviction that these are the right decisions for what your local community is looking for.
whatever the situation is moving.
Tracy Weeks (30:07.374)
I'm going to shift gears on us for one moment and I want to think beyond the US for a moment. know, given all the different political and cultural changes going on in the ed tech market, particularly globally, what strategies can companies use to succeed in lots of different regions, right? Like the Middle East, the Global South, and so on.
Karl Rectanus (30:32.553)
Well, as we've seen, certainly, you know, the US situation can have impact internationally and continues to. We've seen that with USAID and development dollars. But the reality is, this was, you know, there are a lot of different markets. I described it, I think there's an opportunity to really leapfrog instead of playing Frogger.
If you look at, I don't know if you guys grew up, I I played these sports, I mean, these video games not too well. LeapFrog, did well. It was athletic and it was outside. But Frogger, the old Chris Splatt, trying to jump between these different challenges. And quite frankly, a lot of times when you've got a European Union or
Europe that has so many countries with different regulations, with the Near East and Middle East, Global South, different regulations, it can feel for companies like they're jumping between different challenges or doing a lot of things. My advice, one, is to think about are there opportunities to leapfrog? I think some of these countries in the Middle East, South America and Africa,
you've got opportunities that you can sort of leapfrog what's going on in the US. You won't have to go through 50 states and three territories as much to say as, they're building the infrastructure. Let's not go through these growing pains. Let's go direct to an AI driven approach or take an innovative approach. I think some of the things going on in Australia and New Zealand, pretty compelling.
big enough markets to engage with. But I think those will translate into other countries. But we're certainly seeing, you know, it's gonna feel like Frogger. So if you can find the places that are willing and able to leapfrog, I think that's gonna be the strongest play.
Melissa Loble (32:45.72)
I love the analogy to Frogger. there's a disparate world of education and how countries and regions are addressing the challenges of today and tomorrow. But there's still underlying threads that's consistent, right? There's still lanes that that frog needs to jump through. And there's still cars in that. And there's some consistency in that. And the community coming and rallying around
Karl Rectanus (33:04.978)
Yeah.
Melissa Loble (33:12.92)
Trying to get from one side of the street to the other, think, is really powerful. Do you see any good examples of the community, like the broader education community, coming together and trying to solve problems? Or even local or regional communities coming together? I'll give you an example. In California, the California State University system's coming together with industry and the state government in order to drive
AI use in order to prepare the workforce of tomorrow. And that's a community coming together. Have you seen any really good examples out there of communities coming together that perhaps other communities can go and replicate?
Karl Rectanus (33:54.495)
Yeah, for sure. I think your example from California is fantastic. It reminds me of some work going on in Colorado, the K-12 level where industry Jared Polis and the state superintendent there, lead there, have launched an AI task force that includes solution providers from education, which traditionally has not been the path. So I think that's great here in North Carolina.
I would expect opportunities for innovation, task force, a lot of focus. One of the areas that has been quite active both in the US and globally is around education R &D, research and development. You know, in other sectors, since World War II, in defense and energy and transportation, those sectors have received anywhere from three to six percent
increasing compounded increases in research and development. And in education, it is actually rounded to zero. We really it's been mostly private sector. In the year 2000, we started the Institute for Education Sciences, which has been sort of the lead in R &D and is quite frankly, mostly focused on R. And right now it is under absolute, you know, it has been doged.
And so there's some, you know, concern, legitimate concern for what education research and development will look like generally. But there's been a lot of innovation in that space as well. So I think education R &D, think groups like the Alliance for Learning Innovation, which is a cross sector group for education R &D, think, AERDF here in the US.
Melissa Loble (35:21.25)
Mm-hmm.
Karl Rectanus (35:47.123)
has been underwriting some innovative projects, AERDF. Don't ask, I could, you know, to take sort of a DARPA for education approach. But as you look, you know, into Europe and globally, there's focus from a group called EdFirst and other investors and funders in high impact and in R &D.
influence policy and understand what AI might look like, but also other innovations. Hey, you know, if if we thought that a pencil with two erasers would help kids learn math better, we would underwrite that right? It's not really about the technology. It is about the things that will be more effective that will help us drive better outcomes so that students and their communities thrive moving forward.
And so I think there's a lot of great activity going on and the greatest activities tend to be this coming together, not breaking apart or walking away.
Melissa Loble (36:56.856)
That's so meaningful. And again, we're all focused on the same end goal, right, is to improve student outcomes. I really appreciate this conversation. And I know I really enjoyed talking with you and Tracy today. Last question. What aren't we talking about in the education space? What are we missing? What do you wish, you know, with all of our hyper focus on AI, where it should be, rightfully so, and policy and assessment and a lot of the things we've talked about.
What aren't we talking about or talking about enough?
Karl Rectanus (37:30.869)
Great question. I had a chance to go to South by Southwest at EDU last week, and I will say that I was pleasantly surprised. This is a, you know, an event, a festival that's been in the first part of South by sort of opens Austin for the spring, but traditionally has been more sizzle than steak. A lot of people talking, but you know.
not necessarily a lot of people doing things. And this year, I was really impressed with the depth of conversation, the engagement. It was less about who you were and more about what you had done, what you had learned and what was happening. And so I think as we are challenged or struggle with, you know, what many consider defense, how do we defend the thing that
has been there. How do we keep a Department of Education? I think the opportunity is to think about, we've been working on how to innovate for better outcomes for everybody. So focusing on actual outcomes, opening up to that and making, if we take these investments, if we are keeping things, if we're doing ESAs, if we're doing vouchers, if we're doing these things, do they work? Let's just, let's find out.
Melissa Loble (38:56.28)
Hmm?
Karl Rectanus (38:58.645)
And rather, because if we tied to an accountability system that was based on evidence, it wouldn't be about tearing down public education. It would be about figuring out what's going on. And right now, to be very blunt, it feels a lot like tearing down. And so until we can engage, likely in a different way, likely across sector and with people that we haven't traditionally engaged with.
you know, to have a conversation about how local communities are going to succeed in the last 75 years of this century, stop calling it 21st century learning and let's just go do it. I think we need to talk about what success looks like and really hone and hold ourselves and others accountable to exactly that success. However, innovatively we approach it.
Tracy Weeks (39:56.686)
Karl, this has been so inspiring and so insightful as I totally expected it would be. We cannot thank you enough for joining us today. We really appreciate you.
Karl Rectanus (40:08.444)
It's always fun to be with you. Thanks for all you're doing for the sector and a joy. I hope some of those predictions might come true, but I look forward to working together with you and a lot of other people to get to success.
Melissa Loble (40:23.926)
Yeah, thank you so much, Karl. And we'll make sure to link, like I said, for our audience all of those great resources, organizations that you've mentioned. And we'd love to come back around in six to nine months and see where we're at still and what's new and exciting in your world. So thank you, Karl.
Karl Rectanus (40:42.099)
I look forward to it. Thanks, y'all.
