Discussions End of Quarter update - Q3 2024

[TamasBalogh]

I’m excited to extend the End of Quarter Update practice - which might be familiar from New Quizzes Updates - to Discussions, ensuring you’re informed about recent improvements in the last 3 months and our upcoming objectives for the upcoming quarter. 

Q3 Updates

Edit Discussions Directly from the Index Page

A small, but handy update which has been deployed to production on October 23, 2024. It allows instructors to directly edit discussions from the Discussions Index Page by clicking on the kebab menu and choosing the Edit button.

Announcements Timestamps

To improve clarity around announcement dates, a recent update has changed how timestamps appear. Now, only the publish date (and the last edit date, if edited post-publication) is visible to students. Instructors, however, can see the creation, publish, and last edit dates. This feature was also released on October 23, 2024.

The introduction of Disallow Threaded Replies Option 

The Disallow Threaded Replies setting was missing from Discussions initially and our team added that later. If you are unfamiliar with the situation, you can read my post here. Due to the high impact, we introduced a temporary button as a self-service solution.

Based on the feedback, we are revising the temporary button placement and its availability date. For now, we are keeping it as it is, but you can expect some tweaks in the near future and more details on the availability.

Survey about your needs within Discussions

We shared a survey a few weeks ago to understand your needs and priorities for Discussions. We got a lot of feedback already and thanks to all who’ve responded so far! We’d love to hear from more of you. The survey shouldn’t take more than 5-10 minutes to complete. If you haven’t filled it yet, you can do it here. 

Keeping the Discussions/Announcements Redesign User Group

The Discussions/Announcements Redesign User Group was initially set to close on October 20, 2024, but we decided to keep it until December 20, 2024 and will revisit if the group is still needed. 

Q4 Updates and Objectives

AI Translation in Discussions/Announcements

AI Translation has been released to Beta on October 21, 2024 and will be available on Production on November 16, 2024 as a Feature Option on the account level. The feature allows users to translate text into different languages. More details can be found in our release notes.

Discussions Checkpoints

The Checkpoints feature, now available in Beta as of October 21, 2024, will reach Production on November 16, 2024. T The Checkpoints feature allows instructors to create a more intentional discussion environment. Beyond the initial reply to a discussion prompt, educators can now require additional replies to peers to foster deeper engagement. You can read more about the release in Sam’s latest post.

Save Sorting Preferences For Users

Currently, Discussions does not retain user sorting preferences, meaning the default “newest to oldest” setting is reset each time a user navigates back. We’re working on making preferences “sticky” within individual discussions. This update has been deployed to Beta on October 24, 2024 and will be available in Production by November 6, 2024.

The sorting preference will be saved within the given discussion. If the user navigates to another discussion, the default setting will be applied there. This decision was made to prepare for the next phase of sorting preferences:

Set Default Sorting For Discussions and Lock It as a Teacher

We understand that different pedagogical approaches require different sorting needs for discussions, we’re adding a feature that lets instructors set a default sorting order for each discussion, and will be applied to every student until they change their preference. In addition to that, we will add the ability to lock the sorting in case an instructor doesn’t want their students to change it. This likely will be released by the end of the year to Beta environment and in January to Production. 

Save Expand/Collapse Preferences for Users

Following the pattern of sorting preferences, we plan to let users save their expand/collapse preferences for each discussion. While a date hasn’t been set, we’ll update you as soon as deployment is scheduled.

Set Default Expand/Collapse View For Discussions and Lock It as a Teacher

The default expand/collapse view will also be controllable by instructors on a discussion level and they will be able to lock the expanded view if they see fit. It will most likely come in the same timeframe as the setting of default sorting feature. 

Thank you for your continued feedback and engagement! Your input is instrumental as we work to improve the Discussions experience. Stay tuned for more updates.

[lshulman]

Glad to see some of these requests being in production soon. I will make use of some of them.

With regard to "expand/collapse" options...

I'd like that to include collapsing INITIAL posts as well as replies within threads. Old discussion options allowed for top level posts to be collapsed. Current status of the Redesign does not allow for this.

Often once initial posts have been viewed by instructors, we don't need to be distracted by them and should be able to hide them from our view.

[Jeff_F]

@TamasBalogh  - I've been commenting, sharing experiences, pleading for change, etc. about the redesign shortcomings for a few years now. At times I felt as though the ship (Canvas Discussions) was heading into a tempest unnecessarily. While we have had a few negative experiences, I have sensed a recent change of direction. Be it your approach as Product Manager or perhaps others above who set direction, I just want to say thanks for listening and taking corrective action.

In brief, this is an excellent update and the contents are impressive.

[TamasBalogh]

@Jeff_F, I'm glad you are pleased with the update and the actions we took and I thank you for sharing the update post to other forum topics! 

[mangles]

Tamas

Thank you so much for giving us back our discussions. Can't wait.

Question - While I did not see it mentioned, I assume the instructor default expanded view will serve up all discussion postings one page, to facilitate keyword searches?

Question - Will the instructor default discussion settings be global for all class discussions or specific to each discussion?

Question - Will the instructor default discussion settings clone to new classes? (Which makes sense)

Question - Are there any thoughts to provide a global keyword search function enabling instructors to search all class content?

Thanks again,

mike angles, west valley college.

[Flyfish2]

Thank you VERY much for these hopefully soon to be implemented changes.

[hesspe]

I'd like to raise an issue with Group discussions that regularly comes up for us. 

Scenario 1:

1. Teacher creates a group set, but adds no groups.
2. Teacher creates a group discussion with the above empty group set.  Publishes discussion.
3. Students post.  Posts appears in the ungrouped posting area.  Students can view the ungrouped posting area.
4. Teacher then creates groups and assigns students to them.
5. Students can no longer see any previous posts.  I know of no workaround other than to ask students to repost.

You might call this an unforced error, but it would be good if teachers were protected from making it.

Scenario 2:

1. Teacher copies a previous Canvas site that has group discussions. All copies of group discussions contain an empty group set called "Project Groups." All are published.
2. Students post to the discussion.
3. The teacher then adds an existing group set to the discussion (which is allowed).
4. The result is the same as in the first case: students can no longer see any previous posts.  

I would call this a forced error.

[lshulman]

RE: the issue with group discussions noted by @hesspe:

These issues can be avoided if faculty take the time to prepare the group discussion prior to publishing the course site. 

1. Unpublish or otherwise make these group discussions unavailable prior to setting up groups for students in the new course site
2. Do not publish/make available these group discussions until after student groups have been created.

The main point is that students cannot post to any discussion (group or not) if the instructor does not make the discussion available until they are ready to have students use it. Instructors should be making a habit of adjusting assignment and discussion availability prior to publishing any course site.

Teachers using group discussions need to review "how-to" guides or otherwise get training on how to set up and use groups for discussions and any other assignments that are set as "group" assignments.

PS: I don't think this issue with group discussions has been affected by the Discussion Redesign. These problems would exist in the old discussion format.

[hesspe]

It is definitely the case that it was true for the pre-redesign discussions and in fact it used to be worse. We have over 1000 courses using discussions this term and I would estimate that represents at least 600 teachers, and there is a fair amount t of turnover every semester, so I would to see Canvas made error-proof to the extent possible.  Here are some suggestions, understanding that there can be a huge gap between imagining a rough description like this and coding it.

For scenario 1, If a teacher tries creates a Group Set without creating or populating groups, that Group Set not be selectable in  discussion or assignment settings, until the groups have been set up. 

For scenario 2 if group discussions are copied, when the instructor goes the the Discussions page. she sees a banner like the banner that recently warned about  unthreaded discussion posts reading: "You have group discussions where no groups have been yet assigned. Please assign groups or click here to unpublish those discussions until this is resolved."

[lshulman]

yes, agree. It would be helpful if Canvas automatically warned the instructor that "groups have not yet been set up" and would not even allow selecting "group assignment" until there were groups to assign to it. that would be a simple way to remind instructors of the need to do this. It might even be that a "group discussion" cannot be published (or would be automatically unpublished) until groups are selected. And, of course, groups cannot be selected if they have not yet been set up. 

[gregtew]

Sort by Likes is still (in my opinion) the most valuable feature that has been lost in the redesign. I understand that a button faculty can click to "pin" a post to stay on the first page of posts is planned and that would be helpful, but sorting by likes is more democratic. Students should also have a say in sorting the most interesting posts to the first page of posts. I teach very large classes, 1000+, the back and forth conversations have all but ended in the redesign. Students do the minimal to earn their points for participation, so they comment on the first post they see and move on with their day. When sort by likes was a feature I would often have student posts that would have 50-100 meaningful replies, that has completely stopped.

You can see below how I use discussions to create more engagement. I read a bunch of posts, I then select a few that I emphasize by using the edit tool in the kabob. I never change a students words, but I highlight key points and comment on those points in blue. That way my presence in the discussion is clear and when my comments earn "Likes" (most do) they rise to the top. But, often student "Likes" on posts that I have not read bring interesting posts to the top and I then commment on those posts. That democratic sorting of the most interesting posts is now gone......

[lshulman]

@gregtew 

"Likes" is still an option in the Redesign. With setting to allow only the "grader" or allow all users to "like".

Not sure if these liked posts still get bumped to to of list (overriding "newest" or "oldest" at top). Also not sure how "like" might function when lower level replies to top level posts are liked (where that places the thread).

[gregtew]

"Likes" no longer do anything. "Sorting by Likes" is extremely valuable in large classes.

[dbrace]

There is a report in  Features Q&A: Canvas Release Notes (2024-11-16) by @ellen_peters.

2024-11-07 at 8:56 AM ET

If I set the Course AI translation feature option to 'Disabled - unlocked' at the account level and enable the feature in a course, the options button to select 'Translate text' does not appear in a discussion or announcement in that course. It does work if you set the feature option to Enabled - unlocked at the account level, but it should also work with the setting Disabled - unlocked. Is anyone else experiencing this? I have created a support ticket.

I have been able to duplicate this problem.

-Doug

[TamasBalogh]

Hi @hesspe, @lshulman 

Thank you for your feedback and detailed explanation of the issue. We will explore this further and see what we can do.

[dbrace]

@TamasBalogh,

Have you also see the feedback provided by @ellen_peters in Features Q&A: Canvas Release Notes (2024-11-16) - Instructure Community - 619453?

-Doug

[TamasBalogh]

Hi @dbrace, I was reading through the replies just now. Tank you for bringing to my attention though!

[dbrace]

Just so everyone knows, the release (even as a feature flag / option) of multiple due dates (checkpoints) in discussions has been delayed.

Canvas Release Notes (2024-11-16)

Features Q&A: Canvas Release Notes (2024-11-16)

[gregtew]

Our Canvas support team built a tool that maps the interactions between students in Canvas discussions. Using that tool I've posted two images below from a class I teach that has about 1,000 students each semster. The exact same question was asked in both classes, the only significant difference is that with "Sort by Likes," my comments on student posts and the posts that students self select as interesting with "Likes" stay on the first page of posts. The first image is from Spring 2024 when "Sort by Likes" was still an option. The visualization shows a robust level of back and forth between students around topics/posts that receive the most likes from me and the students.

The second image shows how things are now in the Fall 2024 semester after "Sort by Likes" was removed as a feature. The depth of student engagement with differing points of view has almost completely stopped. The engagement that is there is simply to earn credit. The loss of "Sort by Likes" is a monumental failure and needs to be brought back immediately.

Discussion interactions with Sort by LikesNo Sort by Likes

[hesspe]

@gregtew   This is not a critical comment but an attempt to better understand.

Your graph are certainly impressive.  There is a time variable that isn't addressed, for example if the data from the spring semester is from the end of the semester and the Fall semester isn't over, it's possible to speculate that accounts for some of the difference, and that for various reasons engagement increases as the semester approaches the end.

The graph on the left clearly shows more participations, but I'm not able to perceive the evidence for "engagement with differing points of view."  I assume this speaks to my limitation as regards my ability to understand the what the graph conveys.

In my personal, non-work related, experience with social media, the correlation between likes and the quality of posts is questionable.  Firm opinions get most likes, questions and expressions of uncertainty, however thoughtful they may seem to me are less likely to be liked.  My own posts, for example, seldom get many likes :).

[gregtew]

@hesspe,

The two charts show the responses to a single question, both open for discussion for 4 days mid-semester and after both discussions closed. There are more responses in the one that was organized by Sort by Likes because students are more engaged and will comment more than is required for credit. With Sort by Likes some students in a class with more than a 1,000 students rise to the top and students looked forwared to reading and commenting on their posts. Yes, I have had students that were both super insightful and students that were unhinged that developed a following, but the back and forth with posts getting 20-100 replies completely disappeared when Sort by Likes was ended. Now the students, just check in and check out once they have completed the requirement. Unlike social media, I moderate the discussions to keep the conversation respectful. Snarky comments and insults are not allowed.

If you click on the chart it opens up bigger and you can see the number of replies (lines) to a post. The web concentrates on posts with many replies. Now, without sorting by likes, the students are simply replying to the first thing they read. In the past there would be 5-10 posts per question that received a lot of replies, and well, discussion....

Greg

[hesspe]

Do you surmise that the increased engagement was because people were competing for  "likes," or that seeing the "liked" posts float to the top generated more engagement specifically for those posts, or something else, or both? I will grant that in either case more engagement is good, and that you've made a convincing case for allowing for sorting for likes (as before).  Is the "engagement with different points of view" a hypothesis based on that being an inevitable consequence of more engagement, or do you have specific data to back it up? 

[lshulman]

@hesspe @gregtew 

I am thinking when "likes" bump to top of discussion ("sort by likes" was active feature), more users saw those posts and thus replied to those, vs the less liked posts out of view unless one scrolled down. NOT sorting by likes may encourage more eqitable distribution of replies, at least for non-liked posts. 

I can now see a value in the default to put new posts at top: Encourages more users to read and reply to new posts because that is the first thing they see.

I like to use "likes" as a voting system. I may give bonus credit for the posts with the most likes. But if I cannot "sort by likes" that makes it much more difficult and time consuming to see which posts did get the most likes. 

I suggest "sort by likes" be an added option on the users end. At least for "teacher" role, if not for all users: If "allow liking" is checked, add two sub-options: "allow teacher to sort by likes" and "allow all users to sort by likes" 

[gregtew]

@hesspe 

The key to sort by likes is that when I comment on a post and click like, my comments tend to stay on the front page and students see that I am in there participating with them. Without sort by likes my posts are almost immediately lost in the sea of posts - typically 1,000-2,000 posts per discussion. When my participation isn't obvious, the students simply don't pay much attention to the conversation. They post to earn credit and go on with their day. That's not how it was previously, students would check back in to see how the conversations were unfolding. That's all gone now.

I've had hundreds of students in the teaching evaluations explain how surprised they were to actually look forward to the discussions and how much they enjoyed reading other students' points of view. The evaluations haven't happened yet for this first semester without sort by likes, but I'll be very surprised if those comments continue.

Students are not competing for likes, 3-4 likes is enough to keep a post on the first page of the discussion, or it was, there are a lot fewer posts per page now. In my biggest class (3,000 students) a discussion will have well over 100 pages of posts so my handful of posts are buried in that giant haystack. 

My classes are gen ed classes that students just want to complete and get on with their day, sort by likes did a lot to help make the class engaging.